INTERVIEW: As Your Like It director Brendan O’Hea on As You Like It at the RSC’s Holloway Theatre; and working with his best mate, Judi Dench
I can understand why Dame Judi Dench is best mates with actor-turned-director Brendan O’Hea. Meeting him in an office at the RSC press department, he comes over as warm and friendly, charming and really funny. There’s a lovely gossipy edge to his chat, he seems genuinely interested and occasionally agog at what both he and I are saying. Sometimes the probe turns – becoming the interviewer as he earnestly seeks opinion and knowledge.
Quite a few things are revealed ‘off the record’. Even after our allotted time is up, he’s happy to chat some more, as he shares his infectious enthusiasm for Shakespeare, As You Like It, the cast, and his best mate Judi Dench. Below are the bits we could print.
Have you done much outdoor theatre before?
Yeah, I worked a lot at Shakespeare's Globe, I was there for 10 years.
As an actor I did a brilliant production of Henry VI, Parts I, II, and we took it to all the battle sites mentioned in that play. So Taunton, where a lot of men were killed, and then to High Barnet, and Tewkesbury, and that was quite something, knowing that there's all these kind of dead soldiers lying under the ground that we were then performing. That was a profoundly moving experience. I love outdoor theatre. You’ve got to know that a duck might land on stage, or that there will be a light drizzle.What’s wonderful is you can talk about nature and the trees, and there are the trees; and you can hear the rustle of the trees and the sound of the river, knowing that Shakespeare dipped his toe in that very water. I love the fact the audience come in and they feel that, they can hear that, they can smell that, so it feels very kind of multi-sensorial. The play is a great choice for the outdoors.
Tell us about the cast?
The first thing to say is it’s an actor-musician show. There are ten of them, and they are absolutely extraordinary and amazing, most of them play at least two characters. We’ve thrown a lot of things at them, but they’re a pretty resilient lot.
[Pauses to think] It’s so nice to do an interview and not have to pretend I like the product.
Does not liking your show often happen?!
[Grinning cheekily] Sometimes you’ve got to kind of, you know, turn it up.
I think in this the cast are pioneers. We love each other. If I’ve got one thing right, I’ve cast it well. I’ve worked with Judi Dench a bit, you may probably ask about her in a second, and she’s always said that you can tell by the quality of a company if they get on with each other.The ten actors will generate a power, but if they care for each other and they support each other, which they do off stage and on, the audience will pick up on that. They will feel the heart.That it sounds terribly sentimental, but I promise you there are telltale signs – it’s the generosity of playing; the quality of listening.
Let’s talk about how you started in acting – what was it in your youth that made you think ‘the stage is for me’?
Well, as Sinead Cusack once said acting is the shy person’s revenge on the world. Although I am sure there are those actors who love showing off.
Teaching has always been my ambition, but I wasn’t bright enough to get into university. I failed all my exams and it just happened that a girlfriend of mine at the time wanted to be an actor and auditioned for RADA, and so I auditioned for Bristol and we both got in.I’d worked with the National Youth Theatre, so I’d had some acting experience, but it was never a plan to be an actor. I’ve kind of given up acting… I just needed my evenings back, dear God! And what’s lovely about directing now is there is a kind of teaching role as well. You’re nurturing and supporting and shaping and hopefully empowering as well, which is similar to teaching. So for me, that kind of, that inner teacher in me, that's what gives me great pleasure.
You mentioned being the shy person going into it, so you weren’t a look at me extrovert?
I grew up in South Wales, and went to a rough school and was bullied for being a bit camp – I’m bisexual.
And so of course you start to work on your wits a bit to protect yourself. And that’s the story for lots of actors, especially quite a few gay actors. So I used wit as an armour to protect myself really.
How is it being at the RSC –because you came here as quite a young actor?
That’s very kind, but I really wasn't young.
It was about 2003, I did All's Well That Ends Well; and then 2007, for Merry Wives the Musical. With Alex [Gilbreath] and Jude [Dench] and all those other people.I’ve known Greg [Doran, former artistic director] for a few years. My partner is designer Stephen Brimson-Lewis, and he’s designed almost all of Greg’s shows up here. So I feel connected to the company.It’s just lovely to be here, and that Daniel and Tamara said, ‘We want to do the outdoor theatre, and we’ve had a big sign off from Michelle Terry at the Globe saying, you’re the person to do it.’
And how is the vibe with the new co-artistic directors?
I think Daniel and Tamara have a real vision for the company. Not that I’m denigrating Greg, the company was very solid under him. But my God they’re ambitious. There’s that wonderful Browning quote: ‘A man’s reach should exceed his grasp, Or what’s a heaven for?’. They're reaching beyond themselves.That’s what I love about that ambition for this production.
On to the play, so it’s been cut down to 80 minutes?
The brief was at 80 minutes, I've got it down to 85, 86 at the moment. So it is fleet afoot. And that’s been quite tricky… because as Mark Twain once said, ‘I apologise for such a long letter – I didn’t have time to write a short one.’
As a journalist, you'll understand that – it takes a lot more skill and energy to process something.And the other thing I’ve obviously had to contend with is just the doubling and the runarounds, thinking, oh, God, if she goes off there, can she then do the runaround to there and do the costume change? It wasn’t too hard in this play because it’s not plot led, but rather character driven. So it wasn't too arduous. I think with other comedies, especially Comedy of Errors and probably Taming of the Shrew, it would be difficult.I didn't want it to be just about a speed run. There has to be moments for music and for love to come into the room, and for reflection – just to vary the pace.I keep on saying to the actors, if you go too fast with a speech, it can often make you feel a lot slower. But sometimes if you find the thoughts and you find another thought, suddenly you think, oh, my God, where did time go? Theatre plays a lot of tricks with us in terms of time.
Proportionally, how much of the play has gone then?
Probably about half of it. All the big set pieces are in there. But a lot of that Touchstone stuff is just, oh, my God, what’s going on? So that’s gone.
As you’re in Stratford – are you worried about how the learned academics will judge your edits?
I’m not as clever as Stanley Wells, who’s a mate of mine and lovely Paul Edmondson. I think they’ll be their usual generous selves. I think they know it’s just another version.
Obviously it’s a more family friendly show, but who is your audience, how are you thinking of them?
I always think you’re doing the play for somebody who's seeing it for the first time and somebody who’s seeing it for the last time. I’d like to imagine there's a grandparent out there watching it with their grandchild and they’re both getting something out of it without either of them being patronised. Especially the youngsters: kids are incredibly sophisticated.
We’re in a service industry and that’s what's great about this troupe. It’s not about us, we’re only in the service of the audience, and my job as a director is to be a conduit between the author, and to empower the actor to be a conduit between the author and the audience.That’s the beginning and the end of it. If people go away and remember the play, I’ve done my job right. If they go away and remember the company, I’ve really done my job right.If they think too much about my clever direction, somehow I think I’ve failed. That would be too much about my concept.
Critic Harold Bloom said As You Like It was his favourite play for sheer pleasure – but is there more to the play, is there profundity?
There really is. It’s an actor-musician show, that’s the first thing to say, and I think it’s a kind of confetti cannon of love in all its different forms, whether it's romantic, brotherly love or perhaps self-love. But it isn't all just a celebration of that. There’s a kind of a darker, unsavoury, dare I say, Baby Reindeer love between Phoebe and Silvius too.
Shakespeare also seems to have a radical take on gender identity, with Rosalind passing for male as Ganymede. How does that sit with modern thinking?
Somebody once said that it was written in 1599 and it was one of the first shows they did at Shakespeare's Globe when it was originally a big outdoor space, and they think one of the reasons it was put on was to celebrate the talents of the company. And for me it feels like a variety show.
There is a whole kind of smorgasbord of routines and with this extraordinary kind of wonderful loving relationship in the centre of it between Rosalind and Orlando. And Celia and Rosalind are like a double act. But in terms of the gender thing, it’s fascinating. I mean, Shakespeare was transgressive.
There was a reason why the Puritans wanted to close these theatres down. There are daughters taking on fathers in so many of his plays, and you have a daughter doing that in this play. I mean, talk about gender politics. They were challenging the patriarchy, and they go off into the woods.We’ve got it a bit at the end, where when Orlando sees Rosalind, he doesn’t just go how lovely. He’s gone on a journey where I think he's questioned his own sexuality, perhaps, and she goes to touch him, and he doesn't quite know how to negotiate that touch.So hopefully we’ve got those moments.I think there’s never a full stop with Shakespeare. There are more questions.
I wanted to ask about your romantic couples and how you cast them.
The four lovers are all connected, either as friends or through drama school. It was by chance but you can see the chemistry. Other people have said it is best chemistry between an Orlando and Rosalind that they have ever seen. And I really think it is, because one of them is often undercast – it’s often the Orlando.But Luke’s incredibly charismatic. He was the Prince of Egypt in the West End. And he has a sensationally good singing voice. So there's a bit in the show where he does the sonnet, ‘hang there my verses’, and then I just said at some point, just break into song. And my God, he does.
The last time I saw you in Stratford was at the literary festival, talking on stage with Judi Dench who you wrote a book with. Tell us about your relationship with Judi.
Oh my God, yes, nightmare woman! No, joking, I love her! She is extraordinary.
Funnily enough she dislikes As You Like It and thinks it’s such a silly play.In our book, Shakespeare The Man Who Pays The Rent, she talks about playing Phoebe, I think, at the Old Vic. She just didn't like the play, she thinks it's silly. So I totally and fundamentally disagree with her on that. She’s a great mate and I love her. We take each other on, we challenge each other and she says, nobody ever speaks to me like you do. We laugh, and have spent so many Christmases and holidays together.
We’re about to go to Cornwall. She’s one of my best friends and my oldest friends. But we connect because she’s a child. She’s an 80 soon to be 90-year-old, but she is a child.We just love playing and games and all of that. But we have bust ups, including some humdinger rows. The original idea with the book was during lockdown, she wasn’t very good at being by herself. I said, look, I’ll come down and interview you about all the Shakespeare parts you’ve ever played.And the plan was to give all these recordings to the archive department at Shakespeare's Globe. But there was so much swearing and arguing and bickering over God knows what, everything... I've got 120 hours of this crap. And I thought I can’t hand this over to the Globe. And then we edited it and then it evolved into a book.We can argue over anything – about how to stress for example. Recently we had one because she didn’t think there was something called a pink grapefruit. She said, there’s only a red grapefruit or a white grapefruit. I said, there is a pink grapefruit: Florida pink grapefruit. We have a huge fight about that. And then there was a massive argument on how to pronounce the word C-U-C-K-O-O. [Brendan shows comic mock frustrated when I apparently say it like Judi – ‘cook-oo’ as opposed to his weird version.] Oh God. Why am I telling you all this? Please don't make the article about this. [Brendan then goes on to reveal more comedic moments from the hilarious best buddies’ squabbles, including the time she ruined his expensive Paul Smith with candle wax and overzealous use of a hot iron.]She's just great. We just connect, and connect with Shakespeare. She has that kind of elfin mischief quality that we respond to in each other.
What has Judi taught you about Shakespeare?
She says it’s to trust simplicity, to dare to be simple. She said if you’ve got five choices, then just make one choice because that will have more power. And, she used her playing of Ophelia as an example.
I said, how would you play Ophelia differently now? She said, when I was young, I threw everything at it. You know, I was just mad. I’d be rolling around the floor and dribbling and doing God knows what. Nowadays, I would just find one thing to do. I’d come in and I maybe go up to a chap, and I’ll say, where is the gracious majesty? Speaking to Gertrude. And it’s that moment, it makes you go, oh she’s not quite right. That Ophelia is mad. And so Judi said, over time, you realise you can do less and convey more. And hopefully when you see this production of As You Like It, I hope I’ve gone some way to do it. I mean, that is my taste anyway. But it takes courage for an actor to do that because they want to throw loads of things at it. I did it when I was an actor. Certainly the feedback we’ve had so far is that people have said it is so clear.I think when you go for that simplicity and you don’t overcomplicate Shakespeare, in a way, you see all the reverberations then. But if you throw the kitchen sink in it, you try to be too clever, I think Shakespeare gets lost..
Will you be doing a follow up book with Judi?
There might be another one. We didn’t think we'd survive this one, but we did. And we managed to produce something that people seemed to enjoy.
I feel like I haven’t asked enough questions about Judi – dishing the dirt, she’s a big drinker?!
Well, she likes Champagne…
[More delightful conversation and insights continued with Brendan, all ‘off record’...]
As You Like It is on at the outdoor theatre until 1st September.